Tish Squillaro 0:00

Hi everyone, Tish Guilero. Welcome to Candor with Tish. As you know, I have amazing guests that join me to talk about the stories, the good, the bad, the ugly, of what's it like to build an executive team, be on a team, and lead a team. Today I have a very special friend/slash colleague that I've known for a very long time. And I always thought that she was destined to be in Hollywood. And guess what? That's exactly where she landed. So I have my guest today, Dea Lawrence, and a little bit about her. She's the co-president and publisher of the Iconic Variety. She oversees and streams the business operations from all the platforms, leading sales, marketing, international licensing, and strategic strategies. She has a Daytime Emmy Award for executive producing AE's power of women changemakers. And she sits on the board of the SAG Afra Foundation and on the advisory board of the Exceptional Minds and the Board of Hollywood and Pixels. Dea, welcome to Candor with Tish. Hi, thank you, Tish. You know, I feel honored. Obviously, you do lots of amazing podcasts and attend amazing things all throughout Hollywood. So I'm sure you've got great stories. But today we're going to stick to just your life within being a leader, an executive, a CEO, driving leadership. And since I know you well, I wanted to ask a question about just that. You've been both on a team, you've been leading teams. What was the greatest transition for you from being on a leadership team to actually leading the leadership team?

Dea Lawrence 1:37

So here's what happened when I I've been actually managing teams for a very, very long time. And I sort of got thrown into managing very quickly after being an individual contributor. So what I've learned through the years is what my initial instinct was, which is something that new managers fall into this trap, and this is years ago, is that I would give the direction, and if I didn't like the way it was done, I would just do it myself. Be like, no, that's not how you do it. Which isn't always scalable, by the way, as you know. Get out of the way, and I'll do it. It's totally not scalable. It's a terrible way to manage teams. You know, you have to really trust the people that are on your team. And that's why hiring is so important. You have to, when you're, you know, when you're leading and you're leading a large organization, you obviously have to delegate and you have to trust. And so that was the first lesson I learned when I when managing people was that you cannot pop, you know, and first of all, it's it's a terrible thing to do that to someone, to basically say, yeah, you can't do it as well as I can. Right. So that was my first no numero uno lesson. Delegate. You know, you have to mentor someone, you have to teach them, you have to train them. Whatever there is they're they're doing that isn't the way you want it, you have to coach them through it.

Tish Squillaro 3:04

And trust is earned, as you know. So it's not so easy for CEOs to give up power and delegate day-to-day things that they know are so critical to the business. When do you know that trust is given to the right person? Because sometimes, and I've been with you on some of those occasions, where you start to think whether or not that person that you have to trust is maybe trustworthy, but not capable.

Dea Lawrence 3:28

Yeah. So I've learned that lesson too. And and here's what I've learned from from that. And there's sort of a debate about it because I've have sort of a different opinion than some of the consultants that I've spoken with. And that is if I give someone continual feedback, and if they are not stepping up to do the job the way the job is supposed to do, or if they're constantly a problem in the culture, I just get rid of them. I yank them out. Quick? Well, it depends on the role. So sometimes if it's a salesperson, no, not quick, because I know I've been in sales and I know it takes time. You've got to give a salesperson ramp up time. And I've really seen this happen where people have gotten impatient with salespeople. Oh, they're not bringing enough money. No, you've really, I have a gut instinct that tells me this person's gonna be able to do it. And you've got to give them that time. Otherwise, you're gonna be on this constant cycle of hiring and firing, hiring and firing. It takes a long time to build build a book of business, and you've got to give that person a chance. You've got to make sure, though, that they've got the will, you know, that they they want to do it, and that, you know, they have the will and the skill set. Other times I have pulled out people quickly when I just see they're never gonna get it. You know, maybe they fooled us in the job, in the interview process. There was some sometimes people can be very skilled at covering in in the job interview. That's why it's so important to keep digging. If you know someone isn't gonna work out, you want to get them out in the first 90 days because otherwise it's gonna be hard to get them out afterwards.

Tish Squillaro 5:10

No, and sometimes people keep people with the aspiration that they can get them there because it becomes their pet project. And just the other day we had a CEO on that said they spend way too much time giving them a lot of time to grow until then it's become a problem for the business and then it's a yank out. And you don't want to have it that it's so traumatic. I like that you would be quick. Have you ever done it too quick? No. So your instincts have told you this is not gonna work.

Dea Lawrence 5:38

Right. And I've also been, you know, thankful to myself when I've know this person is not going to work out. And we keep like like even if it's someone who we don't get who we who we wouldn't make a move on in the first 90 days, someone that we've kept in in various jobs that I've had, I'm not necessarily been taught, I'm not talking about variety necessarily, that this person I'm constantly giving them the same feedback and I'm done. And I know it's like a a toothache. You just yank it out, and then when you put the right people in, then you can say to the team, you see, we got the right person. Look, look at the difference. And in the hiring process, too, I think it's better to make sure you've got the right person and take the time to find that right person than to quickly hire. Because once you've got that wrong person in, you have a bigger problem than you had before when you had no one in.

Tish Squillaro 6:35

Right. There's layers of connections with the team, or something they maybe have started, the clients, if you will. Yeah. So what makes it the right hire for you? So when you're interviewing, which I think is a great segue into one of the biggest challenges CEOs have and leaders of teams is putting the right person in the right seat and or knowing when to make the change for that person if it's not right. Let's go with finding the right person for the right seat. How do you go about that? Like, what's your hiring process protocols?

Dea Lawrence 7:05

Well, the very first thing I look for is will. Do you have the will to do this? And you know, for this particular culture that we're in in variety, you need a tremendous amount of energy and drive. You gotta be able to multitask, you've got to be able to move, move, move, move. So I'm looking for people with energy. Like you. Like me, but I don't want to hire people that are all like me because that that's a separate topic. I don't believe in hiring everyone that looks like me. I want to hire diversity. I want to have people with different skill sets because I already have me. I've got you're enough. One day could be. One is plenty. Okay. So the next thing is I look for someone who wants to learn, who really wants to learn, wants to grow, is fascinated by, you know, I'll often ask them, what do you know? Tell, you know, I'll start talking about the entertainment industry to see if they have a natural passion for it. Because you can't work here if you're not, if you don't love the entertainment industry.

Tish Squillaro 8:01

Or any industry. I do believe in that. You you'll have a hard time. I tell this to my kids if you don't like the area you're going into, you won't do it with your heart and you won't do it well. Right.

Dea Lawrence 8:12

Yes, definitely not. You could never put me in healthcare.

Tish Squillaro 8:16

So I've I've watched you do uh the phone line business. I don't know how much you love that. What is all selling?

Dea Lawrence 8:25

All right. Although I could play a healthcare worker on television, but not in real life. So the next thing is I want positive people. I I really need to be around people who are positive, who who feel they can move a mountain, that no matter what, you know, I often said sometimes when the economy was bad, it doesn't matter that the economy's down. It doesn't matter. We're still gonna close. We're still gonna find the money, right? And the people who are very resilient. And so I'll ask a lot of questions about, you know, tell me about a tough time you went through and how did you overcome it, and tell me about some of the challenges in your life. Uh, because we need people who are resilient, who can keep going. And then also, this one is a little harder to discern, but flexibility. Because sometimes, especially in this economy, we're going to change people's roles and we're gonna say, okay, I know you were doing that, but now we're gonna have you, you're gonna do this now too, and we're gonna throw you this. And sometimes people are like, no, that's not my job, but that's not what I do. And I we can't have people say that's not my job.

Tish Squillaro 9:28

I find that what you described is how we grew up. Do you find in today's generation that those same qualities are easily found in this interview process? Just having worked now for 26 years in this business of working with people, I do see a shift and a mindset change in how individuals look at work and commitment and loyalty and passion. Have you seen that work to the advantage of variety or disadvantage?

Dea Lawrence 9:59

So I think it it's both. So, first of all, I will say for the younger generation, I don't know how many people, if I said, how many people here would like my job? I think maybe 10 years ago, everybody would have raised their hand. And I think now, I don't think so. I I don't know because it's fair. I don't know if they want the same things in this new generation. And right. They don't want to work as many hours as I work. They don't want to work like, you know, the sun comes up, I think about variety. The sun goes down, I think about variety. I think about variety at two o'clock in the morning. And I think that a younger generation has different values than, you know, our generation. I think they value their time more and their life. And but I will say this there are phenomenal qualities that Gen Z has that I love and I embrace. I love so much about Gen Z. I'm not one of those people that are like, oh, Gen Z, Gen Z. I love them. I think that they have wonderful uh qualities. I think that they can be extremely hardworking. They think about things differently in a different way. You know, sometimes they're the ones that say, Well, what if we did it this way? And you're like, oh, hmm. We didn't think about that. That was very true. I see that in my kids. I'm like, oh, I don't think of that. That is a faster way. Right. So, and I want to I try and really listen to them and I try and encourage everyone that everybody has a voice here. Everyone's ideas are welcome. We may not act on them all, but the ideas are all welcome.

Tish Squillaro 11:34

And I do think that change is what's going to evolve the economy and how people balance a work-life balance. I don't know if we all did that. So hopefully, if you are more aware of what you want, you will be able to put your time in the areas you want. Now I'm going to segue into another area, which is did you ever have to let someone go? Since we talked about letting people go, that was emotionally painful because you knew they meant well. Because a lot of times I do think the role you sit in, you have to make a bigger decision than you or that person. It's the company. And it's the company's potential in 18 to 24 months. But sometimes people have done a lot, given a lot, and they just haven't grown with or kept up with, or things happen where what they offer isn't exactly what you need. Could you share a story how you got to that and how you got through it?

Dea Lawrence 12:29

Yes, I have. And especially in the layoffs, layoffs are really tough because I've had to let lay people off that I really like. That's the hardest thing for me. When I really have bonded with the person and you gotta let them go. Or when I've had to let people go for f performance issues. It's hard. You know, that's the hardest thing, I think, about being the leader is that whoever you hire, you may also have to fire them someday.

Tish Squillaro 13:00

What gets you over that difficult? Because I do think that's something a lot of CEOs of C-suite sit at a little too long, is that emotional movement of doing it. What do you do to get there? Like you know it, you could delay it, but you know you can't delay it for so long. Is there something that you feel what is it that gets you over the line?

Dea Lawrence 13:21

Well, when it's layoffs, I try and delay it as much as I possibly can, hoping that things are gonna turn around and I'll be able to save them. If it's a layoff. If it's a performance issue, I just have to do it. Yeah.

Tish Squillaro 13:36

And it's better for that. I mean, I know that we say that, but in truth, if they're in the wrong role, they also know it. And sometimes they don't have the fortitude or the confidence to walk away from something that they're not doing well for fear of what's the next thing. And I do think people could look back and go, I'm glad I got that change. It made me better at what I'm doing now. So I do agree that if you put it in that context, a lot has to be just how you look at it. Because you're helping them if they're not doing well.

Dea Lawrence 14:05

Absolutely. Yes. And and so and you know what, it makes people if you're in the wrong role and you're trying so hard to make it and you just you're not playing to your your skill set, it makes you feel terrible. And you don't feel good about yourself and your confidence starts to erode. So it's better to just get out and go f you know, it's easy to say that because every people have bills to pay, but if you have the luxury of being able to just, you know, take a break, go find something else, you should. If you can. Right.

Tish Squillaro 14:36

You should. So as when you think about a team and you had to describe the one thing that ruins a great group of people who are completely skilled and very capable and can work well together, what's the thing that gets in their way? Themselves.

Dea Lawrence 14:56

Themselves. We're our own worst enemy. So, well, I do I think that when you start blaming other people, when the team starts to blame, because either you're stressed out, you don't there's not enough people on the team, the workload is too much, things are going wrong, so you want to start pointing fingers and blaming.

Tish Squillaro 15:15

And when you see that, if you've ever seen it.

Dea Lawrence 15:18

Yes, you gotta say, you know what, we're all one team. We've got to come together. We only have each other. We only have each other. If you're gonna blame someone and you want to point a finger, point a finger to the competitor. Let's get mad at them. Does it work? Well, sometimes it works, yeah. You know, but you have to keep saying it. It doesn't automatically work.

Tish Squillaro 15:37

Right. Because a lot of times they believe what they're saying is the other person's fault. They don't see inside that they play a part in that. Because one of the things we worked on together a long time ago was to get the team to realize they're supposed to be a team. Sometimes people come in very independent and want to drive their vertical or their area, and they forget that they have to really collaborate or sacrifice for one another. And with that, we don't always see it until it's too late. And then you have to start to think about where is the toxicity or the friction or the lack of trust coming from. Has it ever been you? Have anyone ever given you feedback that the way you're managing that topic, that discussion, isn't creating the environment you want them to have?

Dea Lawrence 16:22

Well, I wouldn't quite say it that way. I mean, I've certainly gotten feedback. You gave me feedback. Did you remember it? Oh my goodness. Yes, of course I remember. I remember everything. So uh when we were working together, you know, it was in ad tech, and it was my first job in ad tech, and I had not gotten used to the fact that you know, when you sell technology, something's gonna go wrong. Always something's gonna go wrong. It's how fast you fix it. And you just have to assure the client, let me tell you, it's tech, something might go wrong, we'll fix it right away. So I was new to this, and there it was like catastrophes all over the place. Things were going wrong constantly at that other company, although they executed well too. And I would call up the engineers and go, it's broken, fix it, fix it. That's just get it fixed. And you would say, they're not picking up the phone when you call.

Tish Squillaro 17:21

Scaring and fear are not very good tactics if you want things to do. Get it done.

Dea Lawrence 17:27

So uh, you know, you have to be calm and you have to say specifically what is wrong. It seems that the ad is not loading properly, it seems it's not loading in this browser. You know, you have to be very calm and specific.

Tish Squillaro 17:40

Well, at least make it safe enough that they can talk. I do think that was the one thing I remember saying is you know what, you don't have to be the only one talking. Perhaps listening would be would be a good thing.

Dea Lawrence 17:52

And that's a good thing in general. We all have to like something this is something I tell myself every day. Just listen to them. Listen, listen, listen.

Tish Squillaro 18:01

Well, I was going to ask you your last question, because this has been lots of fun, but I know we have to run. If you were to give advice to someone who's brand new, starting their new development of a team, and they don't know what they don't know yet. And I think a lot of times, you know, we we meet people who are very bright and capable, but I don't think they've ever collaborated enough to build a team. If you had to give them a word of wisdom, what would it be about building out their first team?

Dea Lawrence 18:28

Take your time and make sure you do a thorough analysis of the person you're hiring. So hiring is key. Hiring is the most important. It is it the hiring is the most important. I always equate it to the theater when I worked in the theater. You can have a great script and a fantastic director, but if you have a lousy cast, the play is going to be lousy. You have to hire good talent.

Tish Squillaro 18:52

Would you hire talent for the next six months, 18 months? Like in an early stage company, you don't know where you're going. Right. So what would be a best practice having had all stages of types of companies?

Dea Lawrence 19:05

Yes. So I think that the need for a startup is very different from the need of five years down the road. And I think what happens sometimes in startups is they have the people that came with the organization from the beginning and they were good in the beginning, but they have now outgrown. And now you got to get some other people in. So if it were a startup, I would say, you know, hire for your beginning stage and make sure you've got the very best people that are going to be right for that environment. And then when you get down the road, then you're going to bring in some different people. Maybe you keep those people, you move the roles around, but then you bring in whatever it is that you need.

Tish Squillaro 19:43

But you're right, hiring. Know what you need and don't hire like yourself. And I don't mean you, Dea, but a lot of times we get comfortable with what we know. And we want people to be as energized as us. And I do think a key component to making hires is hire what you want the business to have. You're only a piece of it, even if you're leading it, but you want a team that's going to actually compliment you, not be like you. And I do think sometimes that is hard because we, you know, we attract people like ourselves. We find them, you know, more comfortable to be around. And I do think sometimes when I step into an organization, it's very to the left or right, depending on what side that CEO's on, that everyone's either very fast-paced or very cautious. And you have to balance it. And it's harder to do that later when you've got such a swing to go with, because it's hard to sustain people who are not like the swing.

Dea Lawrence 20:38

Yeah. I mean, I've heard some I worked with someone about 10 years ago who's like, oh, I love that person. She reminds me of me. She's just like me. I was like, don't hire her.

Tish Squillaro 20:50

Great advice. Oh my God. Thank you, Dea. It's been a fabulous, as always, conversation. Love seeing you. Thank you so much. And I know we've spoken a few words of wisdom that people will carry forever. So I thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.